(NOAH/ALL JAPAN): "The best thing for me, is to be able to do whatever I want under the All Japan name..." Long interview with two people in the middle of the turmoil (2) Toshiaki Kawada
11th July 2000
"I can't throw away the name", says Kawada, who has decided to stay at his old promotion, along with veteran Fuchi. It is a pity that as a result of this, four of the supreme "Five Strong Battles", including vs Misawa, will be put aside. Kawada's eyes were shining brightly as he looked ahead to a new challenge....
(Interviewed on June 25th at the All Japan Pro Wrestling office in Roppongi, Tokyo. Photos by Yutaka Saito. Interviewer: Yoshinori Hamabe)
Q: Even after yourself and Fuchi held a press conference at the dojo on Monday (19th), the situation surrounding All Japan is still in a flux.
KAWADA: It's a flux, yes.
Q: Immediately after the press conference, Nippon Television announced the cancellation of All Japan wrestling broadcasts...
KAWADA: Rather than cancelling it, it feels like NTV has gone to the other side* (Mitsuharu Misawa's new promotion) (bitter smile)
Q: Then, the next day (the 20th), many of the front desk staff resigned, and in the end only eleven people remained, including yourself.
KAWADA: That's all there is to it (bitter smile)
Q: At the press conference after the contract renewal on the 14th, you said that "I would like to do various things as a wrestler, while carrying the banner of All Japan". Isn't it impossible to say that in a situation like this?
KAWADA: It may seem like a no-brainer, but if you work hard as a wrestler, it will benefit the company, right?
Q: However, this past week with all the activity going on, I don't think you could just have been in a situation where you could just silently work on things such as card organization, improving your condition etc.
KAWADA: Yes, that's right. I had to come to work and train, and then come to work and train again, and then repeat because you can't train at a set time. Even if you train at night the day before, you may train in the morning the next day. It was really tough because I had to work around the company's schedule.
Q: In fact, you might feel more at ease once the series* begins.
KAWADA: Yeah, I think once it gets started, I'll feel a little better...
Q: For All Japan, I believe this is the first emergency situation since the SWS incident* occurred 10 years ago. Comparing the current incident with the incident at that time, what do you feel?
KAWADA: No, it's different. Indeed, I guess...at that time Tenryu-san left and some others followed him, but at this time, it is like everyone left together.
Q: Naturally, I think that you too were also invited by SWS, but is the feeling that made you decide to stay at that time, the same as the feeling that made you decide to stay this time?
Q: I see, but objectively speaking, when you lose so many wrestlers, the taste of the food (matches) which is filled with ingredients (wrestlers) from other places and served on All Japan plates, will inevitably change.
KAWADA: Yeah, but when you say there's a signboard that says "All Japan", it's completely different. I mean, it's the people who are holding or bearing the signboard. "Even if it's rotten, a fish is still a fish"...it's not good if it's rotten (laughs). Even if the promotion becomes smaller, and the number of wrestlers decreases, a fish is still a fish. I think the size of the signboard is it's biggest strength.
Q: But to be honest, even if you look at the cards of the series that have been announced, Kawada is the only one who can show off the true software of All Japan Pro Wrestling over the last ten years. But, in order to protect the All-Japan character, for example, New Japan's President Fujinami* has made comments in some newspapers, such as "In an extreme case, they should have Kawada and Fuchi go head-to-head in the main event every day." What do you think about that?
KAWADA: Well, I guess that's okay, but the truth is, you can't use the same card every day (bitter smile)...but that's what I did with All Japan Pro Wrestling. For me, the person who knows the "taste" best is Fuchi-san. He knows the "taste" of All Japan from the top of the company's ring, and he remained behind with me. I think that.
Q: However, regardless of how the fans feel, I feel that your opponents will inevitably change from now on, and new prospects will open up to you more quickly than for the wrestlers who have just emerged.
Q: My feeling is that from now on, "I will carry the flag for All Japan"
KAWADA: Yeah. That's why, like I said before, it's better to put it that way, but carrying something on my back doesn't suit me (bitter smile). As an individual, I want to be free to do my best, and I would be able to carry the burden of being a signboard.
Q: The career that you have built up to this point is unmistakably that of "All Japan Kawada", and no matter who you fight from now on, whether you are conscious of it or not, will be fought in the All Japan style, right?
KAWADA: Yes, that's true, and the wrestlers who grew up in Japan have been doing well everywhere else.
Q: Yes.
KAWADA: My style may look different from other wrestlers, but the basics are All Japan*. I taught the young guys* to learn the basics, and then do things that are different from other wrestlers. Bad wrestlers are bad because they do things that are different from the beginning.
Q: Does All Japan have any plans to recruit and train new trainees in the future?
KAWADA: That may be important, but for now, Fuchi and I will do our best. Before I can train them, I have to do my best as a wrestler. The company is in danger (laughs)
Q: Only wrestlers cannot be forcedly promoted. However, there may be cases where wrestlers who are competing in other promotions, wish to join All Japan.
KAWADA: Yeah. In that case it will need to be determined how competent they are, but that's Fuchi-san's job (laughs) I just hope that by doing my best in the ring, I can ultimately support the company.
Q: For you, there were two choices in the midst of this uproar, remaining at All Japan, or joining Misawa and the others. I think you could have gone the route as "going alone by myself as a freelancer" but...
KAWADA: Yeah
Q: What worries you about that?
KAWADA: Well, maybe I could just take flight on my own, but it figures that the best thing for me is to be able to work freely under this name (All Japan) (smile)
Q: I guess you conveyed that to the company as a request at the time of the contract renewal, right?
KAWADA: Well, I think you know.
Q: This is just my personal speculation; naturally, the biggest reason for your choice is that you "couldn't throw away the name of All Japan", but there is one more thing, I think it's because you don't imagine your life as a wrestler in the long term of 10 or 20 years.
KAWADA makes an irritated noise
Q (hurriedly): So, I think it was a choice for you to become agile, and take on challenges that you had not been able to do as a wrestler, something you had suppressed within your previous framework.
KAWADA: Yeah...well to be honest, it feels close to that.
Q: Lately, you have been out of action for long periods of time due to injury (a fractured right arm*), and other daily troubles. You have often been away from the ring for long periods of time, so I guess that experience led you to decide that your future career as a wrestler would be "very short".
KAWADA: When I had to rest, I had a chance to see the ring from the outside with a different feeling. Well, I'm glad I had that chance to rest, and I didn't waste that time. When you look at it from the outside, you can see different parts of the same match. You can see not only the match, but also the situation around you (audience)...
Q: The competition between the Four Heavenly Kings* or the top five wrestlers*, including yourself, was at such a high level that other wrestlers couldn't easily enter into it. It would be a bit of an understatement to say that it's enough, but I got the feeling that you yourself had a different desire to pursue a new target.
KAWADA: That's right. I definitely felt that way...
Q: Four years ago, you appeared at U-Inter*'s Jingu event, and a tremendous number of tickets were sold in a short period of time. I still vividly remember the anticipation of the fans and the enthusiasm at the venue at the time. However, unexpectedly, you said that you would like to consider interacting with New Japan.
KAWADA: Yes, that's a positive thing.
KAWADA: Yeah... However, I don't think it's a good idea to take a long-term view (of the proposed exchange with New Japan). It's not just New Japan, but if I can fight wrestlers that I've never fought before, and if that is what the fans want, then I think that is something that's going to become more and more positive. Even so, there are still many problems to overcome before it becomes a reality. If it were something that could be done so easily, people would already be doing it (laugh)
Q: But this time, with you mentioning "New Japan", I think the situation will change considerably. In fact Chono and Kensuke* have made positive comments to various media outlets, and I think you have heard this as well...
KAWADA: Well, I guess it's okay if you just know about me (laugh)
Q: I definitely feel like it's closer than before, I think your desire to fight against them has become stronger.
KAWADA: Well, if I were to fight, I'd rather fight with young people than with people from that class. I won't mention any names, but there are always some energetic people out there.
Q: Now, the only card that hasn't been announced yet is the final match at the Budokan, and some quick thinking people say it is rumored that New Japan will be there (laugh)
KAWADA: Well, I'm thinking about it positively, but for now, until I have finished this series until the end, I think I'll have to wait (to have some interaction with New Japan)
Q: One more thing, it has been decided that Misawa and his group will participate at four dates in the series, but but I think it would be awkward to actually meet them at the venue under these circumstances?
KAWADA: No, it's not like we broke up because of an unnecessary fight or argument*, so there's no awkwardness, and there's no hatred between us.
Q: This time, it seems that there are no cards that involve each other, but if that happens then there is a high possibility that the "golden card" of Misawa-Kawada, which Baba-san once said "this is our signature card", and initially made a mainstay of Dome shows, will no longer be realized. Is that so?
KAWADA: Time will solve that problem...and if I'm fine at that time, I don't think it would be inconceivable.
Q: I think fans are also curious about what will happen to the Triple crown and World tag belts* that have now been returned. There is no title match scheduled for the upcoming series.
KAWADA: I don't think there is any need to rush into a contender match, but when it comes to the belt, it was a shame that it was so easy to put down and give up. All of them are valuable belts...
Q: Kobashi, who won the Triple Crown, has said that he was devastated, or rather that he was deeply conflicted.
KAWADA: Yeah.
Q: By the way, is it in your mind that the Triple Crown Championship will be held at the next Budokan?
KAWADA: No, not really. Like I said, I don't think there's any need to be in such a hurry.
Q: The All-Japan belts, up to and including the Asian tag team championships, have a long and shining history in the history of Japanese professional wrestling. There is no way that the belts will be sealed, and I would like to see a fierce battle for them as soon as possible. I think this is a feeling shared by many fans.
KAWADA: But what can I say? Although the belt is at a high level, in a sense it has been a battle in a cage, right? From now on, it may not be the same anymore.
Q: I see. So, there is no need to panic.
KAWADA: Yeah.
Q: When it comes to title matches against wrestlers from other promotions, it's going to be a different kind of excitement than the previous "Battle of The Four Pillars".
KAWADA: Yeah. Even if it's not a title fight, when I fought Takayama*, or when I faced the late Albright* for the first time, the excitement at the venue was something different than usual. You can tell that as soon as you step into the ring. At times like this, I feel scared, and on the other hand, I feel stimulated, like "I want to see something scary." It doesn't really matter what (the content) of the match is, the audience simply wants to be there, and that's the difference.
Q: It is true that there is something like a sense of unpredictability in cross promotion confrontations.
KAWADA: Well, I guess I'm often disappointed when it's over (laugh)
Q: To be honest, among professional wrestling fans, expectations are already high that Kawada, who is responsible for All Japan, will compete against top-class wrestlers from other promotions.
KAWADA: Oh, is that so (laughs)
Q: Amid this turmoil over the split, are there any voices from fans, friends or acquaintances that are reaching you directly?
KAWADA: Well, everyone is worried about me, and I've been getting a lot of phone calls, but I don't think they're that worried (forced laugh). The best thing to do from now on is to keep going, and what happened can't be helped. I've gotten used to the situation, and I have no choice but to keep moving forward and not think about it in a negative way.
Q: It seems that.
KAWADA: Well, the fact that we have fallen this far means that we have now become the promotion with the fewest wrestlers (laugh). Following that, the only thing left to do is develop.
Q: In addition to this incident, All Japan has been in constant turmoil over the past year, with Baba-san and Tsuruta-san passing away one after the other.
KAWADA: No, really, I couldn't imagine that they would die at such an early age. In my opinion, those two supported All Japan, so when I see them like this (looking realistically), I realize how big they were. But, in this world, things like this (separation, strife etc.) happen every ten years, right?
Q: I agree (forced laugh). However, I feel that there is a lot of potential in your future. Things that would have been impossible for you to do if you were responsible for carrying All Japan, you can now do as you are in a situation to do them.
KAWADA: Well, if you don't have a certain amount of freedom, honestly, there's nothing you can do (laugh)
Q: Right now, the attention is on fighting New Japan, but are you interested in fighting in a mixed martial arts arena like PRIDE or the Coliseum 2000?
KAWADA: Well, it's not impossible.
Q: There are quite a few voices among us, and among fans, who think it would be interesting if you were to appear on such a stage.
KAWADA: But, that would be impossible without a lot of practice in fighting under those rules. It would be impossible for me to step into that ring without wrestling. On that point, Otsuka (BattleArts), who will be joining the series this time, hasn't been in a long series like ours, but he was able to beat Marco Ruas* without wrestling, which is amazing. At the time, I thought it would be okay to give him a pro wrestling award (laughs)
Q: I nominated him for the Special Achievement Award at the selection meeting, but he was rejected because he "had no real credibility in the world of professional wrestling" (bitter laugh). Last year, Sakuraba, who beat Royler Gracie, won the award with ease. You'll be facing Otsuka in a tag match a few times in the next series...
KAWADA: Yeah. Well, I don't know how it's going to turn out, so I'm looking forward to it (laughs).
Q: From what I've heard so far, it seems that you have no intention of running All Japan in the same position as Misawa did before.
KAWADA: Yes. So I think he (Misawa) really did a good job. I know that very well, but I don't have that kind of ability.
Q: Maybe it's because you have been senior and junior since High School, but we have the image of you as the second son, and even in the tight knit world of All Japan, you have had a relatively free and easy attitude.
KAWADA: Yes, I criticized the company through magazines. (laughs)
Q: Yes, that happened too.
KAWADA: But, that was something I did to improve the company.
Q: Yes, but even though the two of you have been in the same place for the same amount of time, the difference in your positions makes it feel like you've made different choices this time.
KAWADA:....
Q: Even so, could you yourself have predicted that such a large number of people would suddenly leave?
Q: But you don't feel that pessimistic. On the contrary, you feel a sense of defiance, of breaking through, of positivity.
KAWADA: Well, things ended up like this, but I think the way things turned out was more interesting and satisfying for me.
Q: As you have often said before, there are many "fresh fights", waiting for you in the future.
KAWADA: Yes. For the audience, it's different to imagine the same person fighting every time and wondering what will happen next, than it is to imagine a new person fighting and wondering what will happen next. Well, there are risks to that method, though.
Q: However, I feel that All Japan fans tend to seek "identity" more than fans of other promotions, so I am a little worried about how the existing fans will react to the new lineup of the next All Japan series.
KAWADA:....But fans who like professional wrestling, even if they are All Japan fans, are probably interested in other things. Well, I don't think they'll like everything, but I'm sure there are many who watch other promotions as well. On the other hand, of course, there are also pure All Japan fans...
Q: Misawa has said that even the demands from fans to be "All Japan-like" felt like a burden.
KAWADA:......
Q: With that in mind, the opening matches of the next series will be at Ariake*, and the second matches at Korakuen...In particular, Korakuen Hall has a similar atmosphere to the Budokan, with a "This is All Japan!" vibe, so I'm paying close attention to what kind of reaction there will be this time, with half expectation and half anxiety.
KAWADA: That's true, but I wonder what will happen at the opening venue (Differ Ariake), which I've never been to?
Q: Ironically, the opening show in "enemy territory" will be an All Japan event. It appears that Misawa's new promotion will be based there.
KAWADA: I guess that is what will happen (sarcastic laugh)...Well, I guess all we can say to the fans is "Please keep watching us", and "Please continue to support us as you have done until now". I'm also curious to see how the All Japan fans will react, but that is something each person should decide for themselves.
Q: I agree. Anyway, with the long-established All Japan Pro Wrestling splitting up in this way, it opens up new possibilities for you and Misawa, and I think it's best for the fans if both work hard and shine brighter than ever before.
KAWADA: Yes, of course I'll do my best, but I really want Misawa to do his best too.
Q: In that sense, I feel that the fact that you came out with such a positive statement at such an early stage, "I want to interact with New Japan," saved the current situation from becoming unnecessary mudslinging, and to some extent relieved the feelings of the fans.
KAWADA: I now understand how celebrities feel (laugh). General magazines write things that don't even exist, or pick out the weird parts and publish them. .....It's too late now to complain about this or that, so there's no point. You just have to think about everything in a positive way.
Q: By the way, I heard that you will be sending a big message to the fans from the ring at Korakuen Hall at the second match of the opening round...
KAWADA: I wonder what will happen (laughs)
Q: The content of the message has already been decided, I just have to think about it now (laughs).
Notes
*The NTV Cancellation of All Japan: Contrary to popular belief, NTV did not cancel All Japan and show Noah in their slot. They cancelled All Japan and replaced them with "Coliseum", which was a show which rounded up all wrestling from that week (plus MMA and other fighting sports). It must have been a bitter pill for All Japan to swallow, as Noah got their own segment.
*Series: All Japan (possibly puro in that era) term for a tour. Mitsuharu Misawa disliked it (and the word "Tour" for that matter) and referred to tours as "Navi" (Navigation). However, despite the archaic use of the word, Atsushi Kotoge did use it recently at the time of writing (March/April 2024).
*SWS Incident: Due to a dispute over pay, Genichiro Tenryu left All Japan and founded SWS. Baba never forgave him, and vowed that he would never be seen again in an All Japan ring (as a side note, when encountering the All Japan tour bus on a freeway, Tenryu sped up in his new car, drove alongside the bus and then in front of it, and got honked at to get out of the way). However despite what Baba had vowed, Tenryu was invited back by Motoko Baba after the Noah walkout. Interestingly, during one of his hospitalizations, Tenryu did say that when he he was very ill, he thought he saw Giant Baba standing on the other side of the Sanzu River (which separates the land of the dead and land of the living), waving to him and calling, "Come here and light your cigar!" Tenryu almost went..
*Fujinami: Tatsumi
*Basics are All Japan: Baba's creed, and this has been carried into Noah by Yoshinari Ogawa, is that unless you know the basics, you do not have a foundation to build on.
*Kawada's trainee was (much to his chagrin) Masao Inoue. He could have had KENTA, but no, he had Inoue. Kawada once said "his stomach goes before anything" and threatened him with divine punishment for Inoue's autograph overlapping Kawada's face once.
*Kawada's injury: When Baba (who was in the hospital) was told about this, he said "Fool! What's he done?", this was one of the last things Baba said.
*Four Heavenly Kings: Toshiaki Kawada, Mitsuharu Misawa, Kenta Kobashi and Akira Taue. Sometimes known as "The Four Pillars of Wrestling" or "The Four Pillars".
*Top Five: Probably refers to Jun Akiyama, who was considered to be the Fifth Pillar (fifth member of The Four Heavenly Kings)
*U-Inter: UWF International, a shoot style promotion in Japan that ran from 1991 to 1996.
*Baba-san: Giant Baba
*Chono and Kensuke: Masahiro Chono and Kensuke Sasaki.
*Unnecessary fight or argument: In their All Japan era, Misawa and Kawada (who had been drinking) got into a serious physical fight over karaoke, and both emerged with black eyes, busted noses and in Misawa's case, he needed surgery. Kenta Kobashi (who had been there along with Akira Taue when it happened, and had tried to restrain Misawa), said it was a case of being drunk and "to sing or not to sing". Baba hushed it up (leading to fan speculation for years as to what had happened) and took no action, seeing it as a fight between brothers. He said his wrestlers were to be monsters in the ring, but out of it, they were to act like gentleman. Like all promotions though, human nature prevailed, and All Japan had it's fair share of backstage fights - even one involving Kobashi and Hansen, which Misawa (whose music was playing at the time), had to break up.
*Triple crown and World tag belts: Kenta Kobashi returned the Triple Crown, whilst NO FEAR (Yoshihiro Takayama & Takao Omori) returned the tag belts.
*Takayama: Yoshihiro
*Albright: Gary, who had died that January of a heart attack.
*Marco Ruas: Brazillian Mixed Martial Artist
*Ariake: Differ Ariake
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